Conversing with Mark Labberton

David Ford joins Mark Labberton to explore why the Gospel of John still feels inexhaustible—cosmic, intimate, and urgently relevant in a fractured age. Ford has spent over two decades inside this text and finds it as generative as ever.
"Any of us can begin this quiet revolution in our own corner of things."
Together they reflect on John as a gospel of encounter, trust, and lifelong rereading.
Together they discuss the prologue as a frame for all reality, John 17 as midrash on the Lord's Prayer, the theology of greatness, and Christian unity as gift before task. Together they ask how rereading John forms resilient communities of truth, love, and daring friendship.
Episode Highlights
"You can reread and reread and reread, and the levels go on deepening and deepening that it never comes to an end."
"The meeting with God in John is through trusting Jesus."
"Every time we read this as we are now, we are in the presence of the one we are talking about."
"Unity, this unity is a gift before it's a task."
"We are a centered set, not a bounded set. It's not the boundaries that define us, it's the center."
About David Ford
David F. Ford OBE is Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at Cambridge and a Fellow of Selwyn College. He founded the Cambridge Inter-Faith Programme, co-founded scriptural reasoning, and co-chairs the Rose Castle Foundation. His books include The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary, Theology: A Very Short Introduction, and Meeting God in John. Learn more and follow at https://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/directory/david-ford
(Sources: Cambridge Faculty of Divinity; Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton)
Helpful Links and Resources
Meeting God in John: https://spckpublishing.co.uk/meeting-god-in-john
The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary: https://bakeracademic.com/products/9781540964083_the-gospel-of-john
Theology: A Very Short Introduction: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/theology-9780199679973
The Five Quintets, Micheal O'Siadhail: https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481307093/the-five-quintets/
Rose Castle Foundation: https://www.rosecastlefoundation.org/home
Show Notes
Shared mentor Steven Sykes; Ford later succeeded him at Cambridge
Reading the prologue aloud (John 1:1–18, NRSV)
Light, life, word—simple Greek, inexhaustible depth
"The levels go on deepening and deepening that it never comes to an end."
Super abundance
A theological ecosystem—for beginners and lifelong readers
Meeting God, not merely studying John
Thomas's "My Lord and my God"—the climactic theological statement
Believing as trusting
"We are in the presence of the one we are talking about."
Exquisite and approachable
The word as intercultural headline
Five moods of faith: indicative, imperative, interrogative, optative, subjunctive
Jesus's first words: "What are you looking for?"
Read John every 90 days, like the Psalms
50-year friendship with poet Micheal O'Siadhail; The Five Quintets as improvisation on the Prologue
Reading John 17 with Richard Hays and Richard Bauckham—21 sessions, Cambridge, 2009
John 17 as midrash on the Lord's Prayer
"Unity is a gift before it's a task."
The word "world" appears 16 times in John 17
Rose Castle Foundation: scriptural reasoning across divides
Paul Cefalu's Johannine Renaissance—tumultuous eras turn to John
Theology of greatness: foot washing versus the emperor's claim
Signs of abundant life—Cana, feeding of the five thousand
Daring friendships: crossing barriers as Jesus did
"Any of us can begin this quiet revolution in our own corner of things."
#GospelOfJohn #DavidFord #MeetingGodInJohn #ChristianUnity #ScripturalReasoning #John17 #Lent #Theology
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Electricity underwrites nearly every aspect of modern life, yet decisions about power, cost, and control are increasingly opaque. New York Times energy correspondent Ivan Penn joins Mark Labberton to unpack how data centres, AI, utilities, and politics are reshaping the grid—and who ultimately bears the cost.
"The real focus is who pays and who gets paid."
In this episode with Mark Labberton, Penn reflects on his journey into journalism, his unexpected path into energy reporting, and how covering power revealed the economic forces shaping daily life.
Together they discuss electricity as a moral and economic issue, the rise of AI-driven data centres, nuclear power's return, utilities versus tech giants, consumer vulnerability, racial inequity in journalism, and faith as a commitment to truth.
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Episode Highlights
"The real focus is who pays and who gets paid."
"Electricity is the most important resource we have."
"The utilities once the Goliath have suddenly become a David."
"We wouldn't have need for any of this if you didn't build a data centre."
"To be able to stop abuse with a pen is a powerful thing."
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About Ivan Penn
Ivan Penn is an energy correspondent for the New York Times, where he reports on electricity, utilities, nuclear power, data centres, and the economic forces shaping the energy transition. He has covered energy and utilities for more than fifteen years and has previously worked at the Los Angeles Times, Tampa Bay Times, Baltimore Sun, and Miami Herald. Penn's reporting has examined nuclear plant failures, grid reliability, climate pressures, and the growing influence of technology companies in energy markets. A longtime journalist shaped by investigative reporting, he is also attentive to issues of equity, public accountability, and consumer protection.
Penn is a graduate of the University of Maryland and was the first black editor-in-chief of its student newspaper. He also holds a master's in global leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary and was a John S. Knight Fellow at Stanford University.
His work reflects a commitment to accuracy, fairness, and public service journalism.
Learn more and follow at nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn
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Helpful Links and Resources
Ivan Penn – New York Times profile https://www.nytimes.com/by/ivan-penn
The New York Times – Energy and Environment coverage https://www.nytimes.com/section/climate
Three Mile Island nuclear plant background https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle
National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners https://www.naruc.org
PJM Interconnection electricity market https://www.pjm.com
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Show Notes
Childhood shaped by public-school educators and nightly news rituals
Early journalism roots as school weatherman and student editor
Becoming first Black editor-in-chief at University of Maryland paper
"It was a powerful thing that I was able to experience."
Early reporting career across major regional newspapers
Assigned to energy and utilities beat as apparent punishment
Broken Crystal River nuclear plant sparks investigative focus
Anonymous source meeting at a Chili's launches major reporting trail
NRC documents unlock public-records investigation
Rare use of anonymous sources, reliance on verifiable documents
Sixteen years covering nuclear, utilities, and electricity markets
Nuclear renaissance promised dozens of reactors, delivered only two
Return of nuclear amid AI-driven electricity demand
Rise of small modular and advanced reactor proposals
Debate over safety, fuel design, and reactor scale
Data centers driving exponential growth in electricity demand
"Anything connected to the grid plays a role."
Grid costs shared across homeowners, businesses, and industry
Tech companies argue for shared infrastructure responsibility
Consumer advocates argue data centers cause new costs
Utility regulation spanning local, state, and federal levels
"The real focus is who pays and who gets paid."
Tech giants eclipse utilities as dominant financial players
Consumer advocates outmatched by utility and tech resources
Journalism as faith-shaped commitment to truth and fairness
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#EnergyPolicy #ElectricityGrid #Journalism #FaithAndPublicLife #AIInfrastructure #Utilities #ClimateEconomy
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Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When public life feels loud and divided, what does quiet faithfulness look like? In the US House of Representatives, every legislative day begins with prayer. This responsibility rests with the chaplain of the house and shapes the daily spiritual rhythms of the institution.
"Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon."
On January 3, 2021, Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben was elected by the House to be its sixty-first chaplain. She offers daily prayer and steady pastoral presence and care in one of the most visible and contested institutions in American life.
In this conversation with Mark Labberton, she reflects on vocation, pastoral identity, pluralism, crisis leadership, prayer in public life, and the quiet discipline of blessing those entrusted with leadership. She reflects on her early call to ministry as a teen, her formation as a military chaplain to the Navy, a defining season in Afghanistan, and her unexpected path to serving in the House.
Together they discuss confidential care, advising leaders, the ministry of presence, praying across differences, the history of prayer in Congress, and how to bless leaders without turning prayer into a tool of ideology.
Episode Highlights
"I had a sense of call to ministry when I was about fourteen."
"Chaplains are where it matters, when it matters, with what matters."
"What is your theology of ministry?"
"It is the ninety-nine who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd."
"God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down."
About Margaret Grun Kibben
Rev. Dr. Margaret Grun Kibben serves as the sixty-first chaplain of the United States House of Representatives. Ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA), she previously completed a thirty-five-year career in the US Navy, including service as the twenty-sixth chief of Navy chaplains and director of religious ministry for the Department of the Navy. In that role, she advised senior naval leadership and oversaw chaplains serving sailors, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen around the world. She holds degrees from Goucher College and Princeton Theological Seminary and earned a doctor of ministry focused on theology and leadership. Her ministry has included deployments overseas and senior-level advisement in complex, pluralistic environments.
Helpful Links And Resources
Office of the Chaplain, US House of Representatives: https://chaplain.house.gov
US House Chaplain YouTube Channel (Daily Prayers before Sessions) https://www.youtube.com/@USHouseChaplain
January 6, 2026 Prayer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQLhXt3gWBg
Show Notes
Call to ministry at fourteen; early clarity of vocation
Presbyterian upbringing and the influence of youth pastor Blair Mooney
Visit to the Naval Academy and discernment of Navy chaplaincy
Integrating Christian ministry with military service
"Chaplains aren't combatants. We carry no weapon."
Serving people in uniform, not serving an institution as ideology
Four core capabilities: provide, facilitate, care, advise
Religious pluralism in the armed forces; more than 200 faith traditions
Protecting sacraments, holy days, and dietary practices in deployment settings
Facilitating worship for traditions not one's own
Confidential communication and priest-penitent privilege across beliefs
"There is 100 percent confidentiality."
Advising commanders on ethics, conscience, and moral complexity
Early overwork, burnout, and lack of pastoral identity
Mentorship and formation in the first years of service
"What is your theology of ministry?"
Doctor of Ministry studies and theological self-understanding
Afghanistan deployment as convergence of preparation and calling
"There wasn't a day… that I didn't have a sense that God had prepared me for that particular moment."
Retirement discernment and formation of Virtue in Practice
Unexpected invitation to serve as Chaplain of the House
Bipartisan search process and interview experience
Ministry of presence during extended floor sessions and late-night votes
January 6: emergency, prayer, and calm in uncertainty
"It is the ninety-nine who were leaving the room that needed the shepherd."
Daily opening prayer as constitutional tradition since 1789
1774 Continental Congress and Psalm 35 as precedent
Political interpretation of prayer across American history
"Pray for and not pray on the members."
Crafting public prayer that blesses without excluding
"God is on his throne. He hasn't stepped down."
#MargaretGrunKibben #HouseChaplain #FaithAndLeadership #MinistryOfPresence #MilitaryChaplaincy #Prayer #ChristianVocation #Conversing
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

As we approach Ash Wednesday and the 2026 Lenten season, Makoto Fujimura's vision of slow art, hospitality, and kenotic creativity invites us to resist the speed, fear, and fragmentation of this cultural moment by learning again how to pay attention, to rest, and to become people capable of holding one another with care even amid grief, violence, and uncertainty.
In this conversation, fine artist Makoto Fujimura reflects on art, trauma, hospitality, and the slow practices that help us remain human in fractured times.
"I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter."
Together with Mark Labberton, Fujimura reflects on art as generativity, kenosis, and the healing practice of attention.
Together they discuss slow art, Ground Zero and trauma, Japanese aesthetics and hospitality, dandelions and attention, Sabbath rest, and self-emptying love. They explore how making art helps people remain human amid violence, polarization, and technological acceleration.
Episode Highlights
"I wanted this book to serve as a portal… to recognize something as maybe ordinary or as extraordinary as holding your granddaughter."
"We are not just making… we are being made."
"God is indeed the host."
"Art is… a way for us to navigate our complex times."
"It is okay for me to give my life away."
About Makoto Fujimura
Makoto Fujimura is a contemporary artist, writer, and cultural thinker known for "slow art" rooted in Japanese Nihonga painting traditions. His work explores generativity, culture care, theology of making, and the relationship between beauty and suffering. Having lived and worked near Ground Zero after 9/11, his artistic practice reflects themes of trauma, hospitality, and new creation. He is the author of Art Is: A Journey into the Light and other books on art, faith, and culture.
Helpful Links And Resources
Art Is: A Journey into the Light https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300273656/art-is/
Makoto Fujimura Website https://makotofujimura.com/art
International Arts Movement https://iamculturecare.com/
Art and Faith: A Theology of Making https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300285482/art-and-faith/
Show Notes
Lifelong friendship, artistic influence
Slow art as resistance to acceleration
Minneapolis demonstrations; dignity across legal status; 50,000 people marching in extreme cold as witness to human worth
"I was holding Jane."
Art as portal into ordinary life
Making and being made simultaneously
Scientist father, generative language framework
Kamakura childhood aesthetics
Insider–outsider identity formation
Japanese language, visual thinking, layered perception
Ground Zero studio years after 9/11 shaping imagination, community awareness, and artistic responsibility
Hospitality as artistic and theological practice
Survivor identity discovered through conversation with Columbine survivor
"God is indeed the host."
Attention, "minute particulars," and gratitude amid suffering
Dandelions meditation: beauty in unwanted places; seeds surrendering to wind; healing compacted soil; overlooked gifts of creation
Slow art practice: pausing, observing, letting meaning emerge rather than forcing conclusions
Sabbath, rest, and imagination as resistance to productivity-driven identity
Kenosis paintings, gold, generosity, and self-emptying love as cultural antidote
"It is okay for me to give my life away."
#MakoFujimura
#SlowArt
#CultureCare
#FaithAndArt
#Hospitality
#Kenosis
#CreativeProcess
#SpiritualFormation
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Singer-songwriter Jon Guerra joins Mark Labberton to explore devotional songwriting, public faith, and the tension between the kingdom of Jesus and American cultural power. Through music and reflection, Guerra considers how art can hold grief, courage, and hope together in turbulent times.
"Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one."
In this episode with Mark Labberton, Guerra reflects on songwriting as prayer, the call to love enemies, and artistic courage in moments of cultural crisis.
Together they discuss devotional music, George Herbert's influence, the Beatitudes and American culture, citizenship and immigration imagery, increasing polarization, suffering and grace, and the vocation of Christian artists.
Episode Highlights
"Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one."
"When Jesus says to love your enemies… he is giving us a means of survival."
"This is not sentimentality… the only way to resist becoming what one hates."
"My songwriting… would be a means of coming into contact with the invisible God."
"Beauty puts us in contact with invisible things."
About Jon Guerra
Jon Guerra is a singer-songwriter based in Austin, Texas, known for devotional music that blends poetry, theology, and contemporary cultural reflection. His albums include Little Songs (2015), Keeper of Days (2020), Ordinary Ways (2023), and American Gospel. Guerra has also composed music for film, including Terrence Malick's A Hidden Life (2019). The son of immigrants from Cuba and Argentina, his work often explores themes of citizenship, prayer, justice, and the teachings of Jesus. His songwriting draws inspiration from figures like George Herbert and Howard Thurman, and seeks to connect spiritual devotion with public life.
Helpful Links and Resources
Jon Guerra website: https://www.jonguerramusic.com/
American Gospel album: https://jonguerra.bandcamp.com
A Hidden Life film: https://www.searchlightpictures.com/ahiddenlife
Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman: https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx
The Porter's Gate: https://www.portersgateworship.com/
Show Notes
Devotional songwriting
George Herbert influence on the pursuit of prayerful craft
"Music for attending to the soul."
Monday morning prayer music framing devotional practice
Beauty and invisible realities in artistic experience
American Gospel song introduction and cultural critique
Beatitudes inversion in American culture
"How do I give Christ a say in this conversation?"
Love Your Enemies composition and album Jesus
Howard Thurman's influence on enemy-love theology (Jesus and the Disinherited)
Emotional formation through news, anger, and public life
Death of ego and kingdom discipleship
Kierkegaard and faith beyond ideology
Worship as reordering power
Kingdom of Jesus song and Pilate encounter
Allegiance to a greater kingdom beyond nationalism
Citizenship as foreignness imagery
Immigrant family background shaping songwriting
Citizens song written after 2017 inauguration
"Come to you because I'm confused."
Five-four musical structure expressing disorientation
Groaning beauty and Romans 8 resonance
Artists as "holy fools" naming reality
Moltmann and theology near the cross
Simone Weil: gravity and grace reflection
"Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one."
Hashtags
#JonGuerra
#DevotionalMusic
#LoveYourEnemies
#ChristianArt
#AmericanGospel
#PublicFaith
#Jesus
#Gospel
#SpiritualFormation
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.